UCLA History 111C Group 7
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Natalie Baltimore: Okay cool um you don't have to say your name or anything also when you answer questions and include somebody else, please do not use their real name.
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Natalie Baltimore: Can you hear me.
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Anonymous: yeah okay okay.
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Natalie Baltimore: Great um okay so to begin.
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Natalie Baltimore: was how old, are you, what is your job, where do you work what industry you're in.
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Anonymous: i'm 23 years old and i'm currently a teaching fellow work in the education sector.
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Natalie Baltimore: um okay Would you mind telling me about your family history.
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Anonymous: um will both my parents are Zanzibar your money and.
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Anonymous: my ancestors like seven generations ago left Oman and inner married with people on the coast Swahili people on the coast of East Africa, and now I exist.
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Natalie Baltimore: Oh i'm and are you how do I say this, are you more comfortable with the terms and zabari or would you rather I use the term like so Healy cultural group or some other.
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Anonymous: All of the above is fine with me.
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Natalie Baltimore: Do you find it offensive when somebody says called us ends Bari.
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Anonymous: hmm I don't, but I think it also depends on where the person is coming from when they say that whether it's to take away from my aliveness or it's just kind of like it is what I am it just depends on where they're coming from with it.
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Natalie Baltimore: Okay cool um Okay, so how would you say.
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Natalie Baltimore: zanzibaris or the Swahili cultural group in Oman are treated in general.
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Anonymous: I think it depends um on multiple factors, I think it depends on your class, I think it depends on your phenotype like everybody is mixed in it to different degrees so some people, it shows less than some people, it shows more I think also we it affects our.
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Anonymous: sort of our mannerisms and our behaviors, so I think, even if you are not phenotypically more well what would.
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Anonymous: appear to the average person is African I think sometimes people still know.
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Anonymous: So, to answer your question about how are people treat that I don't think it's one way, I think it's a collection, it depends on each individual's experiences by think i'm.
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Anonymous: Government wise and in relation to how we're treated legislatively I think we're treated like everybody else, but if it's more of a socially where it will be differing.
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Natalie Baltimore: Would you say within the zanzibaris population.
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Natalie Baltimore: Would you say somebody who is less makes or at least their family has been less mixed with our families or would they be treated better or worse than somebody who has family that's just directly from Zanzibar.
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Anonymous: Well, everybody that's Zanzibar your money is both.
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Anonymous: I think that, like if you're in her mind and you're from Zanzibar you have to have been Armani at some point, if that makes sense, like your tribal name.
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Anonymous: So everybody is Arab it's more like If anything, the degree to which you're African which will vary, so I think if you mix more like as in.
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Anonymous: All of us went there right but not everybody intermarried some people were there for less generations somewhere for more generations.
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Anonymous: The history is very broad and I don't think we have time in this sense, to really delve deep into the varying factors and how it wasn't just one migration.
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Anonymous: It depends on when you arrived and what you arrived for and all sorts of different factors, but to simplify, I suppose, I think, yes, if you.
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Anonymous: Like depending generally, even if it's not about being Zanzibar in her mind, there is a lot of tribalism to varying degrees, and I think, yes, if you are.
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Anonymous: seen as less Arab or threatening to the Arab identity which is more built to some people on purity of race for lack of a better word on then, yes, you would be treated differently.
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Natalie Baltimore: And where do you most commonly here, so he being spoken in one.
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Anonymous: In my home around my family extended family as well.
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Natalie Baltimore: Are there any public spaces.
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Anonymous: and public spaces in the sense I people would be Swahili and going out to dinner, maybe, and then you sit by them, but in a popular forum not really I don't think.
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Natalie Baltimore: Okay um and okay So could you just tell everyone where you went to school for primary and secondary education.
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Anonymous: Like the actual schooler the senior.
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Natalie Baltimore: High School.
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Anonymous: Oh, I went to the Salon school.
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Natalie Baltimore: And how are you talking about.
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Natalie Baltimore: A woman's role in East Africa in history courses.
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Anonymous: i'm everybody that goes to a school with like Armani Ministry of Education curriculum has taught the same thing it's it's barely tight and it's very minimal information.
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Anonymous: As to summarize it's along the lines of a bunch of Arabs went and this the capital one moved to East Africa there's barely any information and then there's a lot of like.
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Anonymous: propaganda and multiple direct various sources so unless your own family is well.
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Anonymous: informed about different aspects, I think that this generation less so, but specifically my family, since they were politically involved in stuff there's I think I would say that i'm.
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Anonymous: More informed than the average about certain things but yeah it's it's very difficult to find accurate information about it but yeah the education wise it's not covered very extensively.
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Natalie Baltimore: and outside of family um How would somebody learn about.
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Natalie Baltimore: The history that I want has a slavery.
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Natalie Baltimore: yeah How would How would somebody come about that information.
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Anonymous: There are a lot of books, written by Zanzibar monies themselves, they are extensively documenting all of that and also written by people on the Swahili coast of varying ethnicities as well.
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Natalie Baltimore: um Okay, just to transition Oh, do you think people generally considered zanzibaris as omanis to the same degree that they would another group such as the ugly she's or.
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Natalie Baltimore: Kim geez.
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Anonymous: Okay sounds wise in our mind, I think, have a.
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Anonymous: greater chance of being accepted into the dominant because, as I said, like not everybody mixed with Africa and also regardless at some point we were still.
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Anonymous: omani not that anybody else is less money, but more so in terms of like the whole Arab ness and that sort of identity it's.
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Anonymous: um How should I say, I think, at the end of the day, they are still able to assimilate better, in a sense, depending on what you look like.
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Anonymous: And the fact that they would have omani tribal names, while other ethnicities, despite also being considered or money today wouldn't necessarily have those same assimilation privileges.
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Natalie Baltimore: And does is it would you say that Zanzibar a man has the same chances of marriage compared to and just any other type of all money man.
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Anonymous: um again it's a comes down to the tribalism as President, in her mind with regards to like all the groups it's not like specific to.
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Anonymous: Being Zanzibar you're being producer being know it, I think it comes down to specific groups of people everybody has their.
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Anonymous: I think it's I understand that this question has to be simplified, but um everybody likes their own group it's not exclusive to the predominantly error but they're predominantly this or that so.
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Anonymous: In terms of I think even zanzibaris themselves would have would be picky in relation to certain groups, if that makes sense, so.
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Anonymous: I think when it comes to marrying into the majority, I suppose, it would be more difficult to an extent, depending on how they phenotypically present I think a lot of it comes down to phenotype.
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Anonymous: And how house where he lives so Healy eyes are africanized your family comes on.
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Natalie Baltimore: And you spoken about within the Community, it can be different, as well um How would you differentiate within the Zanzibar, I guess, even the Swahili community in Oman.
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Natalie Baltimore: How would they differentiate themselves within the Community.
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Anonymous: and terms of what.
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Natalie Baltimore: i'm in terms of anything not not really in terms of class, but is there a difference, or in the way that they speak to one another for somebody who is.
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Natalie Baltimore: more integrated into a modern society somebody who.
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Natalie Baltimore: Purely looks a lot more African than another one person that's black versus Arab zanzibaris within the Community is their attention, or is there ever any.
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Natalie Baltimore: lack of coherence.
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Anonymous: or it's okay um yeah.
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Anonymous: I think that the terms also being used in this are sort of problematic and in the in the sense that, like you can be everybody is the same thing, like isn't when it comes to ethnicity, in terms of culture.
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Anonymous: Everybody Zanzibar you are bonnie and then, when it comes to whether you're African or not, will it will differ in the sense that.
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Anonymous: Like when you said whether your era zanzibaris like in this sense Arabic and ethnicity, while in terms of like being Arab or African that goes into some sort of like ethnicity, race weird mix like.
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Anonymous: it's very complex okay so within the Zanzibar Community or the Swahili Community okay to be more to use the correct terminology so Swahili would be people from all over the East African coast.
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Anonymous: So wouldn't just include what's today's ends for the island.
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Anonymous: So people from Rwanda or Bu and di or Congo their lineage they would they would be called a bada.
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Anonymous: So people that are not from the islands and the islands wouldn't just be what's Zanzibar island today extends all the way to normal and Mombasa, which is part of.
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Anonymous: Modern day Kenya today so islanders are different from mainlanders like within the Swahili Community So if you were from.
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Anonymous: What was the capital, it was good yeah, which is what people call a Zanzibar but sounds were is multiple islands.
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Anonymous: So if you're from Abuja it's a it was a completely different environment and your Swahili is different, the culture is different than, say if you're from boone D, so these things do matter to some people it's it depends it's too general, I can't really answer the question but.
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Anonymous: Like.
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Anonymous: yeah there are differences and it comes to even within like accent and culture and the way things are practice.
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Natalie Baltimore: Right.
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um dialect.
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Natalie Baltimore: To to clarify like.
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Natalie Baltimore: Within the Community in a one so outside of Act, the those who are still on the African continent.
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Anonymous: The.
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Anonymous: Well yeah this people in her mind come from different places, not everybody comes from Zanzibar the island.
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Natalie Baltimore: Right right right um but those within Oman the differences that there that was described before those who have been married into different families for a longer generations, or those who.
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Natalie Baltimore: came from the island or from another part of East Africa sooner than rather than like further back in their lineage is there, would you say that there's like tension between within the Community or is it just a very unified front of we are all.
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Anonymous: um I think Okay, I think, how do I answer this basically if you look most people came after so possible says seated the throne, and again, like you, we both have been saying, like it depends on how much you make when you was there, so the people that are more easily assimilated may not.
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Anonymous: identify it as Zanzibar you anymore, if that makes sense, so everybody at some point was in East Africa everybody at some point, even further before that had ancestors that were Arab that moved East Africa but upon moving and returning back to her mind, not everybody is.
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Anonymous: africanized so depending on that factor people between each other.
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Anonymous: I wouldn't say it's tense it's more like some people just don't identify anymore, and I think that's their rights if they want to and other people are proud of their history and are proud of the sort of realized culture that they now.
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Anonymous: belong to.
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Natalie Baltimore: Who i'm.
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Natalie Baltimore: As my My final question, I think you touched upon this a bit earlier um what How would you say that the government within all of its institutions and the economy, just actual laws legislature judicial system.
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Natalie Baltimore: Do you would you say that they differentiate their treatment.
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Natalie Baltimore: In terms of.
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Natalie Baltimore: job opportunities or educational opportunities or.
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Natalie Baltimore: way that some of them are.
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Natalie Baltimore: penalized legally, would you say that there would be a differentiation, or does the government try to.
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Natalie Baltimore: treat everybody equally.
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Anonymous: I think legislatively it's equal on paper.
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Anonymous: But I think not as specific as it relates to a certain group I think generally the way that are mine functions, the way that a lot of countries function is nepotism, so I don't think there's discrimination per se, but I think.
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Anonymous: Within every branch, not necessarily public or private sector, there is a lot of people hiring within their specific groups and it's not exclusive to one group or another, so in that sense, yes, by overall.
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Anonymous: Not necessarily.
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Anonymous: More than you would expect, with any other group if that makes sense.
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Anonymous: yeah and i'm further I think a lot of not all but I think a lot of Swahili families that moves back.
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Anonymous: East Africa, having been more developed in many senses than Armand was at the time that people move back I think many families that came from the Swahili coast and our inner man today did have a sort of advantage over the local.
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Anonymous: predominantly.
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Anonymous: Pure for lack of a better word or monies that they had like an education advantage and the brain game that came with them, moving from the East African coast coast set them up and it's obvious in.
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Anonymous: The generations as they continue on but that's also equalizing more and more as the generations past and education or mind having improved then literacy having gone up it's balancing out more so, but for a lot of Swahili families, they did come to your mind and.
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Anonymous: have this having that advantage of being educated.
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Anonymous: They were able to build successful lives.
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Natalie Baltimore: don't you um.
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Natalie Baltimore: Who just to wrap it up.
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Natalie Baltimore: um How would you say your personal.
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experience.
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Natalie Baltimore: growing up in Oman I, I know that you went to school at UCLA um but being in omani outside of Oman.
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Natalie Baltimore: yeah well is there anything that you'd like to add, do you think that enough people know about this part of the money's over man's history, both in the country and outside.
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Natalie Baltimore: Would you say that you were treated differently growing up just compared to other people, or would you say that you're treated differently when you came to UCLA, I guess, these are there should separate these two questions, but.
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Natalie Baltimore: Were you treated differently when you came to UCLA.
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Natalie Baltimore: compared to other.
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Natalie Baltimore: People who came from countries in the region.
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Natalie Baltimore: yeah I guess it's more just about like you and your personal experiences.
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um.
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Anonymous: My experience in our mind I always identified as zanzibaris so.
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Anonymous: I guess it can be.
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Anonymous: threatening to some people, so I think the fact that I wasn't ashamed and I was more like happy and content with myself may have bothered some people, so there was some tension in those respects.
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Natalie Baltimore: Well, can I can I ask you why, why would that be threatening to them is there an expectation that you would not want to share that part of your history or.
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Anonymous: I think a lot of people are threatened by anybody who is as, in the sense that there's an expectation, I guess, to have a sort of inferiority complex or a sort of gratefulness that we were given or money citizenship.
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Anonymous: um and or a sense died or and then more of an entitlement, I suppose, they owe where money in our mind and you're here now, when you you refuse to assimilate in a sense.
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Anonymous: um yeah i've had a few more like aggressive instances, with certain individuals.
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Anonymous: i'm by beyond I it's.
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Natalie Baltimore: So I don't know I didn't during one of those experiences if you're comfortable, if not don't don't lie.
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Anonymous: Well, one time, I suppose I was talking to somebody and he was dark skinned dark skinned Bedouin, I suppose, but no I.
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Anonymous: African I suppose or not African identifying just like a very dark skinned Arab.
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Anonymous: And he he wasn't Swahili or African or Zanzibar he was just straight up veteran and he had an issue, I suppose, like he said something like questionable towards people have black slash African heritage and I sort of questioned it and then he, like blew up, I guess, like God very.
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Anonymous: He got provoked, I suppose, and he, like just started yelling about how I wasn't grateful for being here and if I love being African so much that I should go back to Africa is the phone.
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Natalie Baltimore: And just even online.
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Anonymous: yeah and he more like if this was my driving instructor.
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Anonymous: He more like went into like a rants and was speaking in terms of like the group and it's entirely entirety like this is the problem with us zanzibaris fellow blah.
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Anonymous: things of that sort, and he said a lot of things that I know I can't really remember now but along the lines of what I just described earlier right.
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Natalie Baltimore: i'm sorry that happened um.
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Natalie Baltimore: Would you say that this guy was an exception to people's mentality back home and their own private lives, or would you say that.
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Natalie Baltimore: Other people might also think the way that he was thinking, but just tend not to verbalize it the way that he.
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Anonymous: yeah I think these attitudes are very covert and very just the way our culture functions, many people aren't as outspoken or wouldn't say things overtly to your face I think his attitude is held by many and, in general, you can see the way that certain ideologies.
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Anonymous: exists in Arab culture, and I think our mind isn't an exception in that sense.
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Natalie Baltimore: Understand i'm sorry I interrupted you when you're you're going to continue after.
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Anonymous: yeah um yeah my experience at UCLA I suppose um I don't necessarily because my culture is African but then phenotypically I think I don't necessarily look.
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Anonymous: As African, as people have like the image of what people think, an African looks like I guess right I think it's it's a sort of and I don't look are either.
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Anonymous: Too many people I don't know what I look like the people I guess to myself, I think I look like i'm both bye I UCLA I it was kind of like for me personally um.
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Anonymous: I guess I I just didn't really click with.
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Anonymous: The Arabs and there wasn't really much of an African population at UCLA, but I still had my few friends, so I think for me at UCLA I it wasn't an environment I especially liked in the grouping sense by it is what it is.
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Natalie Baltimore: yeah and I think.
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Natalie Baltimore: yeah definitely when I was telling people, I think it was at SAP or something.
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Natalie Baltimore: that's like a one's really diverse like really can just be like look like anything, and you can be from all know anything but you can like you know, and they were just like questioning me.
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Natalie Baltimore: yeah okay Mike it's really not like you know this one says like face or.
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Natalie Baltimore: skin tone or height, or whatever anyway um.
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Anonymous: yeah that's Arabs in general people don't really know like like I was saying earlier Arab is and ethnicity it's not a race like yes, there is a group that are.
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Anonymous: Arab but the way that the term works these days it's like kind of like Hispanic where you can be anything but it just means you speak Spanish like how Arab just means you speak Arabic.
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Anonymous: So a lot of people don't understand that, so all over the Arabian Peninsula, North Africa parts of East Africa.
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Anonymous: There are so many people that identifies and they look nothing alike, you can be very, very pale and you can be very, very dark and you're still Arab and you're still is ingrained in your IRA culture, but then our culture itself isn't.
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Anonymous: A monotonous single thing you know.
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Natalie Baltimore: yeah totally um okay well this was basically my questions is there anything else that you feel as though.
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Natalie Baltimore: I didn't ask, but you would want to just point out or some really critical information to that I just didn't think to ask.
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Anonymous: i'm.
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Anonymous: Not that I can think of, at the moment.
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Natalie Baltimore: Right, if you think of anything that you're like oh I forgot to mention this is this just text me or you can send it via email.
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